(Cross posted at The Uncredible Hallq)

A couple of weeks ago, I declared I was taking a break from my blogging on the Antony Flew scandal. I’ve decided to come back to wrap up on the spin apologists have been putting out. For those new to the story, read the New York Times piece by Mark Oppenheimer on Flew first. It’s what touched off the controversy, and the defining feature of the whole thing is that the Evangelical apologists rushing to exploit Flew seem incapable of addressing it as it stands, but rather compulsively misrepresent it.

Christianity Today is just baffling:

In “The Turning of an Atheist, “Mark Oppenheimer raises questions galore without actually proving any of his points.

Oppenheimer supports everything he says with statements the people involved. What more proof does CT have in mind? It’s never explained.

He questions the degree of Flew’s involvement in writing the book…

Everybody agrees that Roy Varghese did most of the work writing the book, and this should not be much of a surprise to anyone who understands that “with” is frequently used as a euphamism for “ghostwriten by.”

…the credibility of scientists whose perspective Flew adopted…

I’ve read the article through many, many, times, but if Oppenheimer himself ever questions the credibility of the scientists involved, I keep missing it. Oppenheimer does quote Richard Carrier and Paul Kurtz doing so, but so what? I don’t know how he could have covered this story without mentioning the fact that the claims made in Flew’s book are controversial.

…and even Flew’s mental competence at the advanced age of 84. (Oppenheimer suggests that Flew may be “a senescent scholar possibly being exploited by his associates” and raises the possibility that his “memory [is] failing” and that “his powers [are] in decline.”)

This point is supported with a fair amount of details from Oppenheimer’s own conversations with Flew. Flew couldn’t remember relevant people, concepts events, and explicitly admitted he had erroneously endorsed a view because he had simply forgotten one of the main objections to it he had spent his life promoting. Again, what kind of proof does the CT author have in mind?

Bruce Chapman has put up a couple of posts at a Discovery Institute website so lacking in substance that it’s hard to find anything to criticize in them. In the first post, Chapman accuses the Times of having sent Oppenheimer to discredit Flew. The possibility that Oppenheimer simply set out to cover it and followed the facts where they lead is ignored without an attempt at justification. Then he calls the idea “that Flew is getting old and forgetful” a “conceit,” simply ignoring the grounds given for this conclusion. The second posts suggests a lawsuit against the times, without explaining what possible grounds there might be for such an action.

William Dembski, that paragon of honesty, has called the Times piece “vile” and “despicable,” without actually finding anything to criticize about it.

Journalist and philosophical wanabe Dinsesh D’Souza is another entry in the flat-out-lie school of spinning this one:

The only evidence that Flew has lost his mind is that he’s 84 years old.

No, the evidence is specific failures of memory documented by Oppenhiemer.

A man of 84 naturally loses some of his memory, especially for names, but this does not mean he has lost his marbles.

This next sentence should make us pause and wonder if even D’Souza knows what he’s trying to say. He acknowedges in a way that Flew’s memory failures are documented, but readers of D’Souza who haven’t read the Times article won’t be clear on this. He also seems to suggest that if you’re at an age where a problem is common, your having the problem doesn’t count as having the problem. If that’s D’Souza’s argument, all I can say is that it’s one of those things for which the phrase “WTF, mate?” was created.

Most of the positive Amazon.com reviews aren’t worth reading, much less responding to, but I’ll look at one because it’s from the literary agent for the book. The main criticism is rather confused:

The NT Times Magazine article referenced in other reviews could be categorized as an ad hominem argument (defined as “appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect, or attacking character and not content”). In an attempt to find a “story behind the story” the article sidesteps the actual story itself, which is that Antony Flew, a brilliant atheistic philosopher, has changed his mind about the existence of God.

First, the definition of ad hominem is weird, as standard definitions include only the second part. Second, the fallacy is only there if the inference that the arguments are unsound is drawn from the character flaws. If the information is simply presented as worth knowing (which it surely is), no fallacy committed. Finally, if the story is the conversion, not the arguments, how on earth can the agent complain about focusing on the man?

This is followed by a childlike statement from Flew, of whose authenticity I sadly have little doubt:

“My name is on the book and it represents exactly my opinions. I would not have a book issued in my name that I do not 100 percent agree with. I needed someone to do the actual writing because I’m 84 and that was Roy Varghese’s role. The idea that someone manipulated me because I’m old is exactly wrong. I may be old but it is hard to manipulate me. This is my book and it represents my thinking.”

Lastly, there is a quote from the publisher containing an outright lie: “the NYT Magazine writer generalized from Flew’s aphasia to senility.” For the half-dozenth time, Oppenheimer explicitly describes observing evidence of memory problems going far beyond Flew’s self-described “nominal aphasia.”

I have to say I’m surprised by the number of prominent Christians rushing to dirty their hands with such nonsense. In a way, I’m disappointed; it wasn’t supposed to be this easy to show the world what scumbags they are. Then again, I’ve already commented on how boring such frauds can be.

In lighter news, John Haldane wrote the Times to say his involvement with Flew was limited, and that Haldane “sensed that his vigor was reduced.” (Also published was a letter from Varghese, which I dealt with when it was published by Vic Reppert. The Times edited Varghese for length, but the stuff they cut wouldn’t change the blatant falseness of Varghese’s claim that “The only reason that people ask questions about his mental faculties is that he dared to change his mind.”) Valarie Tarico has an excellent post on the subject, which sets aside addressing the spin to actually understanding it. Finally, via ExChristian.net, there’s a somewhat outdated but still nice video of Richard Dawkins speaking on Flew.

In Dover, DE, four women were arrested and charged with “prostitution within 1000-feet of a church.”

Sure enough, Delaware (like Oklahoma, and possibly other states) has a special law, with increased penalties, for prostitution near a church.

Every city and town in America is marred by shadowy businesses that fuck you for money, trade in guilt and feel-good artifice, and make young girls wear tiny skirts.

But I have one question:

Why punish prostitutes for working near them?

I have been working far too much lately and have been barely keeping up. I did find THIS to be particularly encouraging and you may want to let Mikey know that you support his efforts. You can find out more at The Military Religious Freedom Foundation

An excerpt from the article:

Weinstein is certain that fundamentalists will stop at nothing to transform the United States military into an army of God. He notes that Officers Christian Fellowship, with chapters in every major U.S. military installation in the world, envisions—and here he quotes its mission statement—a “spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit.” The group has helped boost fundamentalist Christianity among the armed forces from a negligible presence 20 years ago to a faith currently held by 30 percent of U.S. soldiers, according to Weinstein. He adds that many of those soldiers—hardcore end-timers and Dominionists—desperately want America to invade Iran, thereby triggering the biblical prophecy of the Rapture.

And the religious want us to shut up and sit down. Well all I can say is that when they stop the hate then we can get on to some real business. Until then we have to contend with them and their myriad of imaginary playmates.

All Mods please feel free to do what you do best as I will be offline for the next day or so. Have fun. I wish you all a very happy Thanskgiving.

…and the Women Who Love Them!
From the Guardian Unlimited, by way of Fark.com:

“A Christian group trying to prosecute the producer and broadcaster of Jerry Springer – The Opera under blasphemy laws will take its case to the high court in London today.

Christian Voice wants to bring a case against Mark Thompson, the director general of the BBC, and Jonathan Thoday, producer of the award-winning musical, for blasphemous libel, but was refused permission by City of Westminster magistrates court. The group is hoping to launch what would be only the third prosecution in more than 80 years for an offence which carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.”

No comment, really, though it’s kind of shocking that this happened in the more secular UK and not here, where the program runs every freaking day. Maybe it was just that, while it was daytime TV, trailer trash/couch potato fare, it was alright. But let it hit the London stage?

“The last successful prosecution was brought by Mary Whitehouse in 1977 against Gay News for publishing a poem, The Love that Dares to Speak its Name, about a Roman soldier’s homosexual love for Christ.”

Tee-hee…

“Stephen Green, national director of Christian Voice, said in 2005 that the show portrayed Jesus as a “coprophiliac sexual deviant“. A coprophiliac is someone who is sexually aroused by faeces*.”

*- as opposed to a homoerotic masochist with a death wish?

In the tradition of hearkening back to holiday massacrees of days gone by, I belatedly cross-post this item from my ol’ solo blog: a response to the Christianist grinch who tried to steal Thanksgiving….

More horrors from WaPo’s new “On Faith” forum, this time courtesy of R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:

Thanksgiving has been transformed into an iconic American event. This leaves us with a fascinating question — how do unbelievers celebrate Thanksgiving?

Here is the response I posted:

Dr. Mohler,

As I savor the leftovers of my 49th Thanksgiving — none of which was ever a remotely religious affair — I am struggling to digest your divisive and demeaning post.

It is terribly sad to see that this is the kind of message that’s supposed to be reflective of Christ’s love. And it’s sad to see yet another stain on the Washington Post’s once-proud record, that they would provide a platform for this narrow-minded nonsense.

If your wikipedia entry is correct, and you believe in “the ‘verbal plenary inspiration’ of the Bible, and that it is the inerrant, infallible Word of God,” there probably isn’t much point in debating you, is there? The Word was written millennia ago, translated many times, and interpreted by you and your brethren. So you will, de facto, always be correct. And those of us who are merely Americans, but not Christian Americans, will be wrong.

So, I’ll confine my remarks to the following…

1. “Thanksgiving Without A Giver?” The “giver” in Thanksgiving isn’t an invisible guy in the sky who receives thanks. That would be a “taker.” The giver in Thanksgiving is the American citizen, who pauses to reflect on nature’s, humanity’s, and this fortunate country’s bounty. Someone who isn’t blinded by Christianist bigotry is able to see the beauty in all things and in all people and wouldn’t seek to marginalize those who make the idiosyncratic choice *not* to base their lives upon [an] old book.

2. “The secular vision of thanksgiving feels empty and false… Those who disbelieve in God may substitute some ‘attitude of gratitude’ for thanksgiving, but it does look like a pale and artificial substitute.”

You guys are doing a heck of a job taking over a country that used to rigorously keep church and state separate.

Enjoying and respecting Thanksgiving as a holiday for all Americans is just not good enough for you holy folks.

Thanks to people like you, my country is beginning to look like a “pale and artificial substitute” of the great land I grew up in.

The president y’all helped install has brought disgrace to this country — Iraqi deaths in the hundreds of thousands (trading “thou shalt not kill” and “turn the other cheek” for pre-emptive war), and an “ownership society” that would have shocked Christ more than any nails driven into him did.

Here’s an idea: appreciate people for their humanity, rather than denigrating them for failing to be part of your flock.

Have any of you received that dumbass “atheist and the bear in the wood story” that is being forwarded around cyberspace usually in the form on an email ? It’s also plastered all over the internet on dumbass Xian sites. I did a Google Search and it’s everywhere.

I have received the stupid and annoying atheist/bear forward a couple of times and merely deleted it without response, however, my husband is not one to let these provocations drop and sent back a response to a friend who sent it to him yesterday. His thought is, which I do agree with, if people send shit like this when they know you are an atheist, it is going to provoke a response. (It makes me mad that we are given the label “radical, crazy atheist” whenever we speak up after being chivvied into some sort of response.)

Here is the story Xians made up that they think is so fucking clever.

An atheist was walking through the woods one day admiring all that evolution had created. “What majestic trees! What a powerful river! What beautiful animals!” he said to himself. As he was walking along side the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.

Turning to look, he saw an 8 ft. grizzly bear beginning to charge toward him. He ran as fast as he could down the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again and the bear was even closer. Heart pounding in his chest, he tried to run faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up the bear was right over him, reaching for him with it’s left paw and raising it’s right paw to strike him.

“OH MY GOD!”

Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. Even the river stopped moving.

As a brilliant light shone upon the man a thunderous voice came from all around. “You Deny My Existence For All These Years, Teach Others That I Don”t Exist; And Even Credit Creation To Some Cosmic Accident. Do You Expect Me To Help You Out Of This Predicament? Am I To Count You As A Believer?”

As difficult as it was the atheist looked directly into the light and said “It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?”

“Very Well”, said The Voice.

The light went out. The river ran. The sounds of the forest resumed …. and the bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke: “Lord, thank Thee for this food which I am about to receive.”

My husband had a good response to a friend who sent him this little childlike “fairy tale” yesterday.

For starters, there is NO GOD.

Secondly, BEARS CANNOT TALK.

Thirdly, anyone who goes hiking where bears live KNOW that you do not stop and chit chat with bears or try to be their friend. An atheist, unlike Xians who believe in magical protection, would know the rules of hiking concerning encountering wild animals and would “play dead” after tossing your backpack far away from where you are.

Therefore this whole little “joke” is kind of idiotic. This bear/atheist fantasy is a reflection of that programmed belief of xians that atheists are bad people who deserve death simply because they cannot believe in an imaginary friend. It’s a similar type of threat children are given via stories and movies about Santa Claus…if you don’t believe, he won’t visit you and bring you stuff! The non-believing child in films and books is always portrayed as lacking or a “misfit” when the fact is that most children of atheist families are quite happy and enthusiastic about life.

An interpretation about the bear story that a person in a post on another blog said that this only shows that some Xians would love to kill Atheists in the name of their god and shows just how “loving” and “tolerant” these people are of those who do not share their beliefs.

(The cartoon is stolen from a “loving Xian” website.)

(And here is a “lovely” Thanksgiving flash version,The Atheist and Thanksgiving Dinner, a Fairy Tale from the “For Jesus” website.)

The following is an excerpt which humorously explains the history of prayer according to Unencyclopedia. This whole entry on prayer is hilarious, and oh, so true. When I was a Xian, prayer in church was boring and many times TORTUROUS as the minister droned on and on, and people sat with heads bowed, and my husband nodding off to sleep and I had to keep him from falling out of the pew.

Prayer was a concept first proposed by the prophet (and late-scam-artist) John who created it to win the first “most pointless activity” competition which took place in 29BC. It remains to this day the 3rd most pointless activity known to humankind – coming a close 3rd to watching paint dry and doing SuDoku respectively.

The concept of prayer has since been adapted by many humanitarian control systems (colloqueally known as religions) in order to bore the pants off or just accutely annoy people who actually live in the real world. Prayer is practiced by millions of time-wasters across the world. Most developed forms of prayer involve aligning ones-self with East and using a purpuose built carpet.

Some more radical members of the various religious sects believe that some forms of prayer such as murmering words in your head (or occasionally really pissing off other people by saying them out loud) or bowing like a demented parrot can actively improve the quality of your/others lives in the long term. Such theories are under investigation.

Prayer is currently the 2nd seed for this coming years “most pointless activity” awards – and hopes are that it will beat staring competitions with stuffed owls.

This is video is hilarious. It’s similar to something one of my sons or husband would do if asked to say a prayer. (Everyone in my family knows better now.)

“I wanna thank ya for chickin’!” LOL!

I was reading some news off my newsfeeds for the BBC, which put me in mind of this quote, circa 2005, by one ‘Dr.’ Jerry Sutton:

“The most religious nation in the world is India, the most irreligious nation in the world is Sweden. We are a nation of Indians ruled by Swedes.”

In fact, the simile has multiple parallels for both countries (India and the US). While their government borrowed heavily from the British, the constitution is the power, not the parliament (that’s reversed in Britain). The term ’secularism’ was inserted via a Constitutional amendment in 1976. As noted in the entry, the ‘freedom of religion’ has some serious consequences:

Left-wing critics note that the right to change one’s religion is restricted in a handful of states. While no state has ever banned conversions altogether, and while most anti-conversion laws are directed only at “fraudulent” conversions obtained through bribery, fraud, or coercion, these laws may have been implemented unfairly. Furthermore, these critics note that religious violence is a serious problem in India, as reflected in events such as the 2002 Gujarat Violence. Right-wing critics note that Muslims, Hindus, and Christians have their own separate civil codes-and that while the Hindu code has been ‘ Westernized,” no efforts have been made to reform Muslim civil law. They also note controversial efforts to “appease” Muslims through actions such as subsidizing pilgrimages to Mecca-though even Hindu pilgrims have certain benefits.

What really prompted that quote from 2005, was this entry - Man ‘marries’ dog to beat curse

An Indian man has “married” a female dog, hoping the move will help atone for stoning two other dogs to death.

P Selvakumar, 33, said he had been cursed since the killings, suffering paralysis and a loss of hearing.

Judging by the following paragraphs, I’d say he’s been ‘cursed’ by some severe psychosis.

The wedding took place at a Hindu temple in Tamil Nadu state. The “bride” wore an orange sari with a flower garland and was fed a bun to celebrate.

Superstitious people in rural India sometimes organise weddings to animals in the hope of warding off curses.

Feel free to lug this out next time some mook pulls the ’same sex marriage will lead to people marrying their poodle and couch’ gambit. After all, homosexuality is illegal in India.

‘Tried every cure’

Crowds cheered the newly-weds at the end of the ceremony in Sivaganga district, about 50km (30 miles) east of the city of Madurai.

The “bride”, who is called Selvi, was led to the temple in Manamudurai wearing a sari before vows were exchanged in a traditional Hindu ceremony.

What did Selvi do? Bark them out, or howl them?

A relative of the groom who attended the wedding said he hoped Mr Selvakumar would now be cured.

“Fifteen years back Selvakumar was physically fit. But, once he attacked a pair of dogs and thereafter Kumar could not move his limbs freely,” the relative, Ramu, told the BBC.

Yeah, it couldn’t be the lack of medical treatment in a 3rd world country, could it? Why did he attack them? They were mating in public, that’s why. Oh, the horrors! Oh, the (non) humanity!

“He tried every cure for his ailment but could not be rid of his disability.

A list would be nice, but I’m guessing ‘every cure’ is pretty much limited to charms, talismans, and maybe the occasional trip to some fakir/faker in the street.

“On the advice of an astrologer and others, he decided to marry a bitch to get cured. Then we arranged Selvakumar’s marriage with a bitch.”

The restraint I’m exercising here is…difficult at best. So I guess Ann Coulter is still single?

Further on this:

However, Selvi later became restless and ran away. She was subsequently caught and brought back to her husband.

Got cold paws, huh? Imagine “Lassie Come Home” in Prakrit. Or the ‘Runaway Bride’ debacle as reported by the Hindi version of Faux Noise.

Sadly, this isn’t an isolated example – for instance, when a woman married a snake last year. And, as reported by the preceding link,

Marriages between humans and other living beings are not uncommon in India. A tribal girl was married to a dog near Bhubaneshwar recently.

(Special note – I wrote this, and then discovered my good friend Stardust has already done some pieces on these items. D’oh!)

On a more serious note, monkeys are going somewhat apeshit over in India, biting babies and accidentally killing a mayoral deputy – and again, religion rears its ugly head: 

Part of the problem is that devout Hindus believe monkeys are manifestations of the god Hanuman and feed them bananas and peanuts, encouraging them to frequent public places.

So, here we have a nation of Indians ruled by Indians, and what do we get? Human-animal marriages. Local fauna doing harm to humans. Human sacrifice and witch burnings. As well as some inhumane examples of exorcism. And even some cases of widow-burning. And while not in India, one Nepalese fellow decided to rid himself of an unruly appendage, via the eight-armed Goddess of Harm, Kali.

So the lopsided simile has become, with a touch of research, a valid example. We really do need the ‘Swedes’ to run things, or otherwise, we’d have a whole lot more crazy-ass fairy-beggars running rampant in the streets, flagellating themselves and bellowing into their foam-flecked beards, blathering in tongues and puncturing themselves with serpent teeth.

Religion sure brings out the best in people, doesn’t it?

Let the innuendoes and double-entendres commence.

This is the Apostate, signing off.