Okay: Take Two
13 February 2007 by Bob
Just a follow-up to that amazing screw-up from CNN.
They tried it again, and it was slightly better this time.
It’s great to hear Rev. Wingnut talk about ALL THOSE DAMNED GAYS…
(Yes, I’m sure they’ve been requiring you to have sex with men, Sir.)
But the best is when he says, “We get our values from God, from the Bible. Where do you get yours from?”
(Yes, as if there’s a monolithic interpretation and membership requirement.)
I’m tellin’ ya, if I hear that lame-ass values argument one more time, I’m gonna puke…
Anyhoo, take a look and call-in with your response…
(Click on the pic for the link.)
13 February 2007, on 12:54 pm
Our morals prevent us from getting our morals from God.
13 February 2007, on 1:24 pm
It was better. Why is it most black clergy can’t speak properly? I thought he was German for a minute, with all the Gott stuff. Maybe he was trained in Egodics.
Definitely needed to be an hour-long show, or more. The atheist should have brought up, as a main point, that “god” in the pledge of allegiance wasn’t there 50 years ago. Not sure about “In god we trust” on currency, but I can’t imagine it having been there from the start.
13 February 2007, on 1:26 pm
I wonder how many xians would go through will the killing of two-year-old male children if they were told by their pastors that their gawd ordered it?
13 February 2007, on 2:47 pm
[...] See “Okay: Take Two” [...]
13 February 2007, on 2:56 pm
Stardust
I wonder how many xians would go through will the killing of two-year-old male children if they were told by their pastors that their gawd ordered it?
I don’t know about just two-year-olds, but willing to bet it is quite a lot. See here
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial4/jonestown/
13 February 2007, on 3:02 pm
Here are my comments copies and pasted from Pharyngula’s site:
The thing about Reverend Jesse Peterson is that he has no constituency. He is a tool of right wing conservatives who fund his organization so that right wing African American voices can be seen and heard on television. That’s why he kept going off message and attacking college liberalism. Sean Hannity has him on his program all the time and for a few years Peterson would have a “Repudiate Jesse Jackson Day”. I don’t know if he still does it or if he stopped because it was a failure.
I met Rev. Peterson once in Washington, D.C. about 10 years ago. I was once involved in the immigration restrictionist movement and he was part of the California contingent. Again, with respect to bashing immigration, Reverend Peterson provided a black face so that white immigration restrictionists can point to him and say “Look, he’s on our side, so we’re not racist.”
As for his badgering Ellen Johnson about where atheists get their values from, I’ve been thinking of a pithy way to answer that. I would say something to the effect that I derive my values from the accumulation of thousands of years of human experience and wisdom that expressed itself among other things in the humanism of the Greeks and the Enlightenment values of liberty and rationality. As for Peterson’s boast that he gets his values from God and the Bible, I would have shot back at him “The God you worship does not exist and the Bible is not the inerrant word of the Creator of the Universe, so what makes your value system better than mine?” (END OF PHARYNGULA COMMENTS).
I hope to have my own post up on the 2nd CNN segment tonight or tomorrow.
13 February 2007, on 3:12 pm
Um, link? You’ve got two links to previous GiFS discussions, but none to the video.
13 February 2007, on 3:16 pm
Both “In God We Trust” on the currency and “under God” in the pledge are products of the early Cold War Era. The currency was changed in 1957, and the pledge was changed in 1954. While many theories account for these changes, the general consensus is that they happened through the unconscious reactionary shift toward collective xianity during that time. The shift was a reaction against Soviet and Chinese Communism, which purports to be atheistic (but that’s debatable). We felt that we had to be as different from them as possible, and since they were atheistic, well–welcome to the Theocratic States of America.
13 February 2007, on 3:27 pm
I really wish they’d had Dawkins on for the panel discussion. The atheist woman they had wasn’t that good. Mind you, it’s a bit unfair to have to answer “Where do atheists get their morals” in 15 seconds, but I think a better job could have been done. Her comment about child molestation isn’t going to help atheist credibility in any way. I think the pastor came off as the sympathetic figure in this.
At least they got “freedom from” religion mostly right this time. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion must be linked: I can’t be free to practice my own particular belief system if I’m not exempted from everyone else’s.
13 February 2007, on 3:28 pm
Nevermind. Found it.
That goddamn pastor needs to stop interrupting people and listen.
13 February 2007, on 3:32 pm
That these…’only moderately advanced apes’ [Xtians]…actually defend the ludicrous ‘all loving’ gawd contradictions contained in their, childish, Bronze age mythology book, is absolutely astounding! I guess it’s really just a glaring indication of how desperate they really are.
In my opinion, the network higher-ups really need to be poked and educated…perhaps continuously barraged…with the same kind of response that was triggered by that Paula Zahn fiasco.
If CNN, MSNBC etc., are going to make claims of being honest, rational, and ‘balanced’ sources of important information; they’d better get their ‘acts’ together. We all watched the chicken shit, kiss-ass, reaction of the media to the Right Wing Fundie attacks, starting in the ’90s with the Clinton shtick. The demonization of Liberalism etc. turned the media into a bunch of Corporate owned lapdogs.
It’s time to end the kid glove treatment of all religions. Every conflict going on in the world today, with all the attendant wrangling, and the various levels of associated hypocrisy, have tribal-religious connections.
Add to that, the huge, bullshit, greedy, religious industry with tentacles directly connected to prominent wealthy weapon industry investors. It’s a world of really sick, addicted, delusional, power hungry jerks that are leading the ignorant mass of people into total insanity. Of course, those ‘jerks’, remain, for the most part, aloof from it all! No need to name any names here…y’all know the extensive list!
As ‘energized’ atheists [are your batteries fresh?]…we may be the only real rationally intellectual force of awareness that those fuckheads are actually afraid of! Yeah…I know…blah, blah, blah…
Oh…Revenant…as to your: “Not sure about “In god we trust” on currency, but I can’t imagine it having been there from the start.”
I possess [heh, heh!] a 1935 $20 bill, which I keep…mainly…because there is NO “In god we trust” on it.
Your point about the ‘god-pledge’ shtick is a pet peave of MINE! Too many younger people, especially, who weren’t around in the ’50s; are really not aware enough, on that point. It really SHOULD be brought up MUCH more often…WITH, of course…the sneaky, under the table, facts regarding the “who and why” behind that outrageously stupid, freedom eroding change! Mmmm…like the Catlick Church’s “Knights of Columbus”, f’rnstance?
Again…that’s one more reason for atheists to keep up the intensity of our… ‘knock on their brains’ [erm...wooden heads?]…WAY too long overdue spotlight on so many important issues.
Another one of MY old “Freedom of Choice” concerns, is the Euthanasia issue. ‘They’ locked up Jack Kavorkian [he may be released in April?], in VERY large part, to completely shut down any public discussion of a very rationally important issue! Notice…similar to what we’ve been pointing out…how that issue is, currently, NEVER really discussed in the media. Again…the dogmatic tyrany of religion juxtaposed to a truly…more compasionate…rational approach to the universal ‘end of life/death with dignity’ issue.
But that’s a whole other topic for another…perhaps future…post?
13 February 2007, on 3:38 pm
Um, link? You’ve got two links to previous GiFS discussions, but none to the video.
Oops, sorry Julie. I should have mentioned in the post to simply click on the pic…
I’ll make the changes…
13 February 2007, on 3:55 pm
That goddamn pastor needs to stop interrupting people and listen.
Exactly! It’s like this with many of these fundies. They just want everyone else to shut up and listen to what they have to say and to just turn on the “switch” of belief in the invisible sky daddy without any discussion or thought. He is an asshole and represents fundamentalist xians perfectly. None of the other fundamentalist leaders would have been any better.
13 February 2007, on 3:59 pm
Plus, as I mentioned before, Peterson is a right wing funded tool so that they can put a black face on their message.
13 February 2007, on 4:01 pm
Mind you, it’s a bit unfair to have to answer “Where do atheists get their morals” in 15 seconds, but I think a better job could have been done.
I was thinking the same thing. Since she is the president of American Atheist, you would think she would have the answers down pat by now. She has been president of the American Atheists now since 1995, so you would assume she would be able to come up with snappy answers to the Xians programmed and redundant questions.
13 February 2007, on 4:06 pm
But the best is when he says, “We get our values from God, from the Bible. Where do you get yours from?”
“Empathy. We actually care about our fellow human beings.”
Sure, it could be incendiary, but it might be a great way to lead the conversation into the inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright atrocities perpetrated by god in the bible and his followers outside.
13 February 2007, on 4:48 pm
I really think that that pastor was talking over the atheist and repeating his quesiton over and over again purposefully. There’s got to be people offscreen with cue cards telling them how much time is remaining. He probably saw that they were wrapping up and deliberately stalled her so that she wouldn’t have the opportunity to answer properly and thus look foolish, allowing him to have the last word.
13 February 2007, on 5:11 pm
I think you’re right about that Julie.
13 February 2007, on 5:19 pm
^ *sigh* More evidence that we still can’t get a fair hearing in the public arena…
13 February 2007, on 5:35 pm
Well, I think it rocked.
As to those of you complaining about the ‘morals’ question: it was obviously off-topic, a red herring, & difficult to answer, as Rev. Wingnut Strangelove kept busting into the conversation (the moderation was AWFUL).
As to Herr Egodics (that’s wunnerful – I’m thievin’ that) rant about the ‘radical gay/atheist agenda’, I think the following is just about as likely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuZ_dWoix68
13 February 2007, on 6:11 pm
This one is particularly poignant for me.
My mother took her own life back in early 1990. She was terminally ill with colon cancer, everything that could be done had been, and she knew it was just a matter of a very short time. If she had asked me to help her, I would have. As it was, her mother was there to help, and while this was never admitted, I’m sure that’s what happened. I only found out after it was over. But I would not have hesitated to do what she wanted. It was the least that she deserved from someone who loved her.
13 February 2007, on 6:37 pm
Good point, Krystalline; at least they gave it another shot. And crappy, crappy moderation, I agree.
Hey, does that mean that our feedback to the first show really made an impact? Woo-hoo!
13 February 2007, on 6:38 pm
Where do atheists get their morality from? The same place that theists do. Except that theists claim that they rely primarily on the bible, which they don’t. If they actually got their morality from the bible, they would be stoning disobedient children to death. They don’t do this because even though it is in the bible, they have REASONED that this is wrong. So, we get our sense of morality and ethics from reason. Some of us are just better at using reason than others.
13 February 2007, on 7:04 pm
Revenant, I am very sorry about your mother. That must have been very difficult for you and your family.
13 February 2007, on 7:32 pm
Eve:
Hey, does that mean that our feedback to the first show really made an impact? Woo-hoo!
Hey, you wanna get a hearing, you gotta raise a little hell.
Revenant:
My condolences, however belated they may be.
It’s in those moments, we can (somewhat) understand the theistic demands for immortality. The end is a bitter pill indeed, for those nearest & dearest.
I lost my father in the 90’s – & I sporadically still have dreams about him.
13 February 2007, on 7:32 pm
Where do we get our morals? Good people don’t do bad things to other people. And we are as a group mainly good people. Difference is we’re good because we WANT TO BE, not because we’re afraid of hell, or plugging to get to heaven. And I’ve got to say that I’d rather someone treat me well in life because they want to, than because they were threatened into doing so.
‘nuf
13 February 2007, on 7:38 pm
I get my morals from common sense. It makes no sense to steal or kill and I don’t need an imaginary friend to tell me that.
13 February 2007, on 8:19 pm
Revenant said:
I want to reach out and touch you, Rev, shake your hand, give you a hug, whatever, just to show I know what you mean and how you must have felt.
In my lifetime, I have seen a number of people I loved and cared for die unpleasant lingering deaths. I have seen many more that I didn’t particularly care about, though I recognised their suffering and desire to bring it to an end. Yet if I had ever let any of my dogs die that way, I would have been prosecuted for treating them ‘inhumanely’, even though they are, by definition, hot human.
My wife and I are determined that we are not going to allow this society to make us suffer beyond the time when we want to go. Accordingly, we have worked out how to assist each other to bring our respective lives to an end, when and if necessary – and to escape prosecution by our law-enforcement agencies for doing so.
How sad that our society makes humans suffer, but requires us to treat animals humanely (not, I hasten to add, that I am advocating anything other than treating animals humanely).
As for the arguments against voluntary euthanasia, I have never heard a good one.
13 February 2007, on 8:47 pm
The second show still sucked. Since they had NO atheists in the first panel, the should have had ONLY atheists in the second.
13 February 2007, on 9:31 pm
Equal time does not always mean equal representation. I dislike this format in making attempts at trying to explain ourselves. More often than not the sound bite is manipulated so that even when we have full reign of the subject the news moderator will spin our words into the realm of trivia.
14 February 2007, on 1:00 am
Yes Revenant…I empathize with what you shared about your mothers death. [#21]
Like I also said in my comment…it’s an issue which is shoved under the rug; and really deserves totally RATIONAL attention.
That ‘banned’ Penn & Teller video [with Hitchens] which I elsewhere linked, in my opinion…really DID hit the mark about Mother Teresa’s bogus saintliness; and quite vividly demonstrates the real connections with why humans treat the terminally ill the way they do.
After all, we would never treat our own pets the way we treat humans, with regard to suffering and the release thereof. As that clip demonstrates; the ‘cultish’, religious, beliefs about sin, penance, punishment and suffering, are kept in place by the ghoolish strangle hold of religion on people’s minds. It’s precisely through fear and guilt…that ancient ‘mind control’ gimmick…which harkens back, even beyond, known human history…that all tribalistic religions have used to control the masses.
Not to go much further, here, with the issue; but, personally, I watched my mother being dragged through some 14 years in a nursing home; the last two years of which, she was on a feeding tube. Sometime into her 7th year, she no longer recognized me as her son; and I stopped visiting, out of guilt and depression.
Long story short; when I finally saw her two weeks before her death, in February of 1987, she looked like one of those Mayan mummies…all dehydrated and lying on her side in a fetal position. I kissed her on her forehead and said my sad, guilt ridden, goodye.
That’s not my idea of how we should be treated in old age, and in the dying process. In my opinion, the system, precisely BECAUSE of fear based religious dogmas, turns the dying process, for a great many, into a humongous, profit motivated, even treacherous…SADO-MASOCHISTIC RACKET!
The same goes for the Funeral Industry! “AARGH”!!!
Thanks for sharing your personal story, Revenant!
As I commented before…we atheists, I feel, may be the only really…”Politically IN-correct”…force for REAL change regarding quite a number of important issues.
In essence, we need to even ratchet up, perhaps, what’s been set into motion…and placed on the ‘front burner’…by the likes of Richard Dawkins.
14 February 2007, on 3:23 am
OK…spelling time again:
[for any ghouls in attendance?]
“ghoulish” strangle hold [not ghoolish]
Hmmm…that leads me to wonder…
Is it Hungarian…”Goulash”?
And, what’s in that stuff?
Should I ask Hannibal Lecter?
14 February 2007, on 8:51 am
Yes, Chuck, it IS Hungarian.
“a stew of beef or veal and vegetables, with paprika and other seasoning.” http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/goulash
I suppose this episode wasn’t so bad, although I agree that it definitely should’ve been longer. At least all our complaining got us SOMEthing.
14 February 2007, on 10:28 am
Wow, ChuckA. That’s some powerful stuff. We never get over this, do we. And rightly we shouldn’t. Even though there is no god, no afterlife, we can still cry for our loved ones when they suffer, when they die. Because our memories are all that’s left of their existence on this planet, and we should cherish them.
14 February 2007, on 1:33 pm
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm
14 February 2007, on 1:48 pm
For anyone interested, here is my take on Monday night’s atheism segment on CNN:
http://anexerciseinfutility.blogspot.com/2007/02/cnn-and-mouth-of-peterson.html
14 February 2007, on 3:44 pm
That’s a great link, DoubtingThomas…thanks…I added the associated ‘home page’ to my Favs.
Informative comment Tommykey.
I haven’t, yet, caught the full clip…if available…of the show.
I do like Rachel Maddow as a liberal voice.
Ellen Johnson has pretty much disappointed me, when ever she shows up; mostly on Larry King.
Of course she’s usually drowned out by the overloaded number of opposing theist types. In my opinion, she seems to lack a certaiin ‘attack-dog’ element in her style; perhaps a bit more ’sharp minded’ aggressiveness is called for; especially up against a Peterson type!
Your description of Peterson as a “reliable and controversial mouthpiece in blackface” could be applied to a lot of the usual Black Repiglican reps; most being just the ‘reliable’ types, sans controversy…
the same ones, whom I’m supposing, are strategically place behind Bush, during his various Photo-Ops!
Interesting to me, is the fact that Zahn appeared to ‘chicken out’ on the moderator role. What was her excuse?…and what was Robert’s personal stance…totally neutral?
I guess I need to check YouTube for a full clip.
14 February 2007, on 7:15 pm
ChuckA, just watch Zahn, talking with Dawkins. She lowers her head, as though she finds what he’s saying “distasteful”! It’s a split-screen, that is suddenly changed to a full-screen of Dawkins. To me, that indicates that the director, in the control booth, had it switched as quickly as s/he could…
15 February 2007, on 6:37 am
They have a 1000 years of indoctrination on their side, we only have Dawkins! They have a billion dollar religious business, privileged access to Government, Education, the Military etc. But hey we are getting noticed!
16 February 2007, on 12:52 pm
I think Ellen Johnson did better than I would have, better than most sane people in such a conversation with the clearly delusional “reverend”. Having Richard Dawkins, Ellen Johnson, and Sam Harris might have been fun, though I think that would lend too much validity to the “atheist voice” if CNN could find three [yes, three!] well-known atheists. The reverend was pushy, insolent, assholish, and overbearing; exactly as to be expected. I’m ashamed to say I did agree with him on one or two points, but not for the same reasons he gave, just the same ends. I hope one day that there isn’t a “black vote” or a “white vote” or a “religious vote”, etc. It’s America, there’s the “American vote” and that’s all there should be. But it’s a pipe dream; I know it certainly won’t happen for many generations if ever in this country. Our candidates aren’t representative of the people and our system doesn’t allow anyone less than a millionaire to stand a chance. I’m still considering Canada (particularly if we go to war with Iran…).
Did anyone ever read the sci-fi story where a computer gives a test which every citizen takes, then it chooses the best President for the US based on the scores. Any age, any gender, any religion could (was it compulsory?) take the test and it chose the best person for the job. Then, eventually, it’s standards got so high that there was only one person left in the world who was qualified. Just a curious ramble down memory lane.
16 February 2007, on 2:04 pm
I know what you mean, Bean. I used to respect John McCain. But after his speaking at Liberty “University”, I’ve lost all respect for him.
16 February 2007, on 4:16 pm
Bean, your sci-fi story sounded familiar. I recently finished reading an anthology, The Science Fiction Century and suspected that your story was in there.
It’s probably “2066: Election Day”, by [Jeffrey] Michael Shaara, copywright 1956. And the only man in America who judged himself “personally unqualified” was now the president…
Beam me up, Scotty!
16 February 2007, on 6:47 pm
Chuck, re your comment…
Reminds me of that old 1940s WC Fields movie, ‘Never Give A Sucker An Even Break’.
Fields (to waitress), “Is that goulash on the menu?”
Waitress (picks up menu and rubs at splatters on it), “No, it’s roast beef gravy!”
Well, it made me laugh at the time.
16 February 2007, on 6:55 pm
Depends on what he said there.
If it was something like, “This so-called university is a travesty of what is meant by a place of higher learning. Its accreditation to award degrees should be revoked, and no State or Federal institution should recognise any alleged qualifications it has ever awarded,” then I think that the guy might still be worth considering worthy of some respect.
But somehow I doubt he said anything like that.
More like, “I love bejeebus as you do, and as a true Cod fearing dysfunctional cretin like youse (not a typo, BTW), I hope youse will all vote for me and that the girls will queue up after I’ve given this speech to suck my dick!”
Whaddya mean, NOT?
17 February 2007, on 10:03 am
It does depend on what he said, but considering he was invited, and wasn’t kicked out as soon as he started, we can only assume he didn’t take the “university” to task for teaching rubbish to their students.
18 February 2007, on 2:02 am
Old Git…regarding that classic W.C. Fields scene from “Never Give A Sucker An Even Break”…
Isn’t the film title one of our mottos here at GifS?
Your recounting of that ‘goulash’ scene image cracked me up!
As to YOUR remark: “Well, it made me laugh at the time.”
Needless to say (but, of course I will, anyway), humorous lines in so many of those early classic films from the likes of Fields, The Marx Bros., Laurel and Hardy, etc. are timeless, comedy gems. I recently watched on TMC (Turner Movie Classics), the hilarious piano moving short film of Laurel and Hardy…so many laughs!
I’ve thought many times of digging out many of those films from my rather extensive VHS archive…another addiction I succumbed to; particularly in the early 1990s. [I've got tapes that I recorded as far back as 1979!...with my first Panasonic VHS]
Too much stuff; with never enough time, alas!
I’m still working on finishing a database for searching through that personal insanity.
Now it’s DVDs…the never ending ‘Quest’ to keep up with technology! Futility!
[Monty Python...and the bridge scene again, I dare say!]
“THWANG!!!”
24 February 2007, on 10:29 am
[...] Response to Karen Hunter and Jesse Peterson By Stardust Going back to Bob’s posts “Okay, Take Two”, and “Ready to Vomit” that include video segments of Paula Zahn and CNN on “atheists in Amerikkka,” I would like to point out that tommy (also known here as tommykey) at Exercise in Futility has written an excellent response dedicated to Karen Hunter and Jesse Peterson titled “Where My Values Come From.” [...]
20 February 2008, on 1:15 pm
[...] Dearest Ellen By Bob Okay, take a breather, Ellen. Just relax a second. I’m not disagreeing with much of what you say here. I, too, feel the things you feel about all of this, and have felt the things you’ve felt. But I don’t think that should lead to the advice you’re giving. In fact, I think it’s just the wrong message for us. Your intentions are honorable, obviously. And you know I respect what you stand for. (That’s why I’m posting this on our blog.) I saw you on CNN, and I was very proud. But your specific advice for this situation is just not entailed by any of that. There are other paths to follow, and other things that need to be done. [...]